The Fabulous Learning Nerds

Scott (00:01.182)
Hey everybody, welcome to an exciting episode of your Fabulous Learning Nerds. I'm your host, Scott Chudy, and with me, as always, a little hurricane down, it's Dan Coonrod.

Scott (00:16.264)
DAAAAD

Daniel (00:17.702)
Scott! How you doing, man?

Scott (00:20.238)
you know, I would love to say that I'm fair to Midland, but I'm not. I'm just kind of getting over two weeks of fantastic, fantastic hurricane anxiety. How about you, sir?

Daniel (00:32.954)
You know, I'm going to tell you what, that's the joy of Fair to Midland because you're just further on the Midland scale like me because

You got some hurricane action and then in a rare occurrence it waltzed itself up the seaboard and dropped off on us to say what's up? This is great.

Scott (00:44.637)
I did.

Scott (00:54.11)
Yeah, I know. it's pure transparency for everybody. We were supposed to record this episode like two weeks ago. Our guest has been amazing. And we love her for that. can't wait to talk to her. It's going to be great. And it was like, yeah, we can't do a show. Dan's house got blown away in a hurricane. And then the next week, I can't do a show. My house getting blown away in a hurricane. Yeah, right. It was just one of those things that's been crazy. Like, I think we're done. But I will say this, what is super great

Daniel (01:01.348)
Yeah. Super patient.

Daniel (01:14.4)
Scott's turn.

Scott (01:21.822)
Is that this always kind of happens this late in the season when you get that kind of stuff like the weather has been gorgeous. It's been like. Perfect weather like perfect fall spooky season weather and I'm super super stoked for it like it's going to be great later on when the trick or treat or show up. It's going to be perfect weather so yeah, kind of blew away all the heat and humidity was kind of a good good deal so that's awesome. Speaking of awesome, but we also have the Duchess of design with us tonight. Zeta is in the house.

Daniel (01:39.046)
You

Scott (01:59.474)
Zera!

Zeta (02:00.792)
What's up nerds? Hey Scott! Yeah, it has been.

Scott (02:02.462)
What's up nerds? I love it. It's been a while. How you doing Zeta?

Daniel (02:02.926)
Hahaha!

Zeta (02:09.818)
so much better now. now that we have power, wifi, all the feelings of civilization, I feel, I feel great. It's like things are excellent again.

Scott (02:14.066)
Mm-hmm.

Scott (02:23.902)
That is great. You know what? The thing that gets me and we're going to stop talking about this because we have fun stuff to talk about is powers. The loss of power is one thing, but when you lose your Internet and your phone and you can't communicate to the outside world in the world we live in today, that's insane. It's so like I just felt like I'm you know, when I went through and I was on this island like I couldn't talk to anybody and it was just really, really weird.

Zeta (02:31.31)
Mm-hmm.

Scott (02:53.352)
I don't know if you guys went through that, mean, the internet's the worst part. Lose your internet, it's bad.

Zeta (02:59.545)
yeah, was like Oregon Trail like all over again. We had to worry about axles and dysentery.

Daniel (03:02.818)
jeez.

Scott (03:06.224)
OK, OK, got it. We're going to talk about this when our guest shows up. But I mean, what a great game. The Oregon Trail, like when I was a kid in school playing that game, I still remember all the things that I learned from that game. That is a great example of of, you know, a gaming mentality put gaming theory put together for young kids that still stands to test today. So I think that's really awesome. Speaking of also really awesome, we've got an

Daniel (03:15.005)
yeah.

Scott (03:35.93)
Amazing and wonderful guests with us tonight and we're going to learn all about her in a little segment that we call. What's your deal?

Scott (03:48.744)
Dr. Lammers! What's your deal, my friend?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (03:50.73)
Hi there, so great to be with you all.

Well, first of all, my deal is I lived through the 2004 hurricane season. So that's why I was so patient. So if you remember that, like it started with Charlie, like that's when I was a middle school teacher. I remember like having to get books out of a trailer that I was teaching in and delivering it. Like it took eight weeks, I think that year before we had a full week of school because of all of the hurricanes. I was, yeah, yeah.

Scott (04:05.149)
Yes.

Daniel (04:08.377)
wow.

Scott (04:19.806)
Now, were you teaching in Florida when Charlie hit? Okay. So my heart goes out to, moved to Florida shortly after Charlie, but Charlie was one those hurricanes that was going one way. then an hour later just made a hook and it probably didn't go right for your house.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (04:38.922)
So I lived in central Florida, Orlando, where we never had to worry about hurricanes. Never. My younger sister was going to school in Miami, so she evacuated to me to be safe. Yeah. We were stuck for a week together. Granted, we get along, but we were stuck together for a week, no power. Yeah. Had to shack up with friends who were closer to SeaWorld because they never lost power. Like, it was a whole thing. And I think I stayed at their apartment three times that hurricane season because I kept losing power.

Scott (05:03.251)
Yeah.

Scott (05:09.51)
Everybody talks about Charlie, and anybody that's lived through Charlie has the same PTSD where we don't trust the weather people at all. We just don't. Like, it's going to hit us. It's going to turn. It's going to hit us. no, no, it's going to. No, it's going to turn and hit us. then, and you know, there it is. But hey, enough on the hurricanes. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what makes you live, drive, and thrive to survive.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (05:17.558)
No. Yeah.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (05:32.49)
Well, I would say learning. Learning, broadly defined, is my deal. I am a learning designer, and I am the director of learning design at Edmentum, which is a technology solution company. We aim to accelerate learning for kids in all kinds of contexts. And what that means is I am not learning in development.

many of the LinkedIn recruiters and connectors are very disappointed in that. They see learning design and they think L &D, it must be. And I was like, no, no, that's not what I do. So yeah, we're in charge of all of the pedagogical equity and accessibility frameworks that go behind the scenes. And then we hand those off to our developers who actually make content for...

online classes for K-12 intervention products that help kids catch up on skills, practice skills, be ready for their state assessments, things like that. And we serve 5 million kids across the world. We're in most of the states, 100 countries. And so if you can imagine, I went from being a professor where I thought I had some impact to now leading a team of people who

put content in front of 5 million kids. So it's just impact on a broader scale.

Daniel (06:58.395)
That's awesome.

Scott (06:58.846)
That's fantastic. Help us understand what were you doing before Edmentum and what caused that transition into this space, which we're going to talk about in just a little bit.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (07:11.156)
Yeah, so I went to, I finished up college in central Florida and knew I wanted to be a teacher. But at the time they were paying teachers pennies, like it was even worse. And so I couldn't live on what they were paying me. So I was a traveling software trainer for a while. So that kind of put technology in my work.

And then 9-11 happened and I thought, I don't wanna be traveling very much anymore, so I'll go teach. And that's when I started teaching in central Florida. And then the hurricanes happened. No, it wasn't the hurricane's fault. But actually in that case, it was the restrictive curriculum of No Child Left Behind that actually got me disappointed in what I had to be teaching there in Florida.

And I had a professor in my master's program who looked like he was having just so much fun in what he was doing. And I went up to him one night after class and said, how do I get to do what you do? And it just speaks to this idea of mentors and brokers and people who can show you the way. And I was like, you look like you're having a blast. What do I need to do? And he said, you need a PhD. And I was like, great, how do I get one of those? Where do I go? What do I do? And so he kind of coached me.

along the way. then I was at Arizona State University getting my degree in curriculum and instruction thinking I was going to go back to a school district and teach the teachers. Wanted to really support teachers who were being asked to do Herculean things. I had the story of the math teacher on my middle school team who

was told that she had to be a reading teacher, because at that time every teacher was a reading teacher and that was the thing, kind of the catchphrase in schools. And she was a 30 year math veteran teacher going, I don't understand. And she would be like, Lammers, I don't know what you're talking about. What do I have to do? And I wanted to make the teaching life easier for folks like her.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (09:16.714)
And then as happens, you can't predict the weather, you can't predict what's gonna happen in your life, somebody blows into town and everything changes. And for me, that was a pair of professors who studied video games. then thus, exactly the looks on your faces if everybody can see it, right? So then what happened was all of a sudden that past life I had of working in technology came into intersect with what I was doing in...

teaching and learning. And I had the opportunity to understand like how do video games lead to learning? How does technology set kids up for different kinds of learning? And then that started a career of researching how technology was being used by kids and young adults for their own interest driven purposes. How are they using forums, YouTube, things like that. But I was trained to be a professor, so that's what I did.

and did that for 12 years until the pandemic. Another thing, right? Like that changes things. Change some things, yeah. And for me, what that did is it allowed me to no longer be location-bound at the University of Rochester where I was in Western New York and I was a nomad and I was traveling around visiting people because I could teach wherever I wanted.

Daniel (10:23.11)
Just a little. Just a little.

Scott (10:24.094)
Changed a few things, yeah. Right, just a little bit, yeah.

Zeta (10:27.672)
See

Dr. Jayne Lammers (10:44.894)
And family kind of called me back to Chicago. And so that's where I'm based now. But I really wanted remote work. And I really wanted to have greater impact than just what I was able to do in my university job. And the articles that I wrote that few people read, you know? And I had this opportunity open up at Edmentum that

allows me to take everything that I've learned and done over the years in schools, online, in formal education, in informal education, and try to come together to try to understand, how do we design things that will actually engage learners in what they need to be learning? And it's a cool job, and I get to work with great people and design amazing products.

Scott (11:34.044)
Wow. What a great journey. I'm super excited to just get into it. Like, I can't wait to learn what you have to share with us today, especially if it's going to touch a little bit on video games, which I'm all about. So folks, without further ado, let's go ahead and dive into our topic of the week.

Zeta (11:34.189)
Yeah.

Scott (11:58.312)
Hey, this week we are talking learning design, and it's not L and D. So hey, what is it? So Dr. Lambers, for thinking about the difference between learning and development and learning design, I just have one question that I need to ask you.

Scott (12:19.676)
Yeah, so what? So why is it important? Why is there a distinction? What is the difference in why is it important for us to be talking about it today?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (12:27.978)
Well, I think it's important because as we at Edmentum are trying to reimagine what is secondary education and what this could look like, we're really trying to make sure that our products are not just fancy worksheets on technology, right? That there's good learning design happening, that what we know from research and pedagogy and classroom realities and brain science all come together.

to inform the products that get put in front of our young people today. That's why I think it matters.

Daniel (13:04.742)
Pretty big deal.

Scott (13:08.19)
One of the things that I think if we're taking a look at secondary education, which I look at the state of secondary education and I feel like it needs a lot of help. Could you talk a little bit about the state of secondary education and where some of the opportunities are and how learning design can help fix some of that?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (13:31.646)
Yeah, here's where I'm going to steal a line from your theme song. I think we are tired of the old ways of getting it done in secondary education. So we are operating in a system that was designed for agrarian calendars and was designed based on seat time and the Carnegie unit. And I think all of that is up for grabs. That was, I think, one of the benefits of

the pandemic and just disruption of school. Now things are up for grabs. And I think what we need to make sure of is that good research, what we know about the brain, how it works, how variable our learners all are, what their needs are, what actually does keep people engaged, what doesn't, what turns them off. And that's everything from culturally relevant pedagogy, which

can be a bit of a third rail in some conversations, right? People are worried about culture wars. But from my perspective, what we know from learning is if folks can't see themselves represented, if they can't connect to the material that they're interacting with and engaging with, they're not gonna learn as much. So I think that's why something like that matters. We know from brain science that when

emotions are heightened. People aren't able to capture information. Information isn't as sticky, their learning isn't as sticky for them. So we're trying to like de-emotionalize things or not emotionally trigger people with things. We're also trying to make sure that the kinds of interactions, the manipulatives that are put in front of them really keep them

kind of working with and applying what they're trying to learn in a variety of contexts. And all of that comes from understanding the research and understanding the reality of learners and educators lives. If we're going to design products that actually help make a difference in secondary education.

Zeta (15:46.028)
I love that getting them getting them involved with almost like a bridge of the technology to get people more involved. Like the thing about programs is you can be part of it, right? You're not just reading a book when you're doing like a game like we're talking about with Oregon Trail. You're playing a part. You're involved, right? It's more hands on. It's more. Immersive, right?

So the technology is kind of now going to include the individual rather than just talk to the individual, correct?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (16:23.048)
I think you're right, Zeta. And I think one of the benefits of technology, and even working at an EdTech company now, we are never about only the technology. We are not a company that thinks that the technology alone will change or save the day. We are very much about putting educators first and understanding that the educator needs to engage with the learner and with the content to help. And that's when

the learning magic really happens, even though we do have self-paced courses that kids can do on their own. But I think the magic of our products is when they are paired with concerned educators who form relationships with kids, keep them engaged in what they're doing. That's when they can really see a lot of growth. And to your point about the technology,

and what we learned from video games. So this was part of my research back at Arizona State, like learning what gets kids really sucked into a game. I studied the Sims and what kept girls really engaged in that game. And awesome game, right? And we were trying to figure out how to use the game to get them along the path of computer science education or just opening them up to that. And in that game,

Zeta (17:30.593)
yeah.

Awesome game.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (17:48.488)
you could just play and create a family and decorate your house and like trap them in a pool. You could do all those things, right? Or you could also design different skins to make it look like different characters. And so we had young women that I found in my dissertation study who would create all of this 3D modeling and meshing and create objects and things that they would download into their game so that their characters

Zeta (17:54.979)
Right.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (18:16.032)
for example, looked like the Twilight characters and they would write all these fan fiction stories like that. Or another young woman was a big Shakespeare fan and she would reenact and reimagine Shakespeare plays in The Sims and things. So we know that these immersive technologies can be gateways to other things. And we know that when kids are maybe stuck in their own geographical area, what better way to give them access to the broader

global worlds than technologies that can immerse them in things. To that point, we've been thinking a lot about career and technical education. And back in our day, like that was shop class, Shop class or something other folks did. And I think the career and technical education space is really interesting and right for this online technology because it gives them hands-on experience, like simulation experience,

Scott (18:58.226)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (19:13.876)
gives them access to different career pathways beyond what they may see in their own neighborhood. So many people are asking for like, what can I actually learn in secondary education that's really gonna help me beyond? And not everybody's going to college, right? And so I think career and technical education is a space that's ripe for some re-imagining using technology.

Zeta (19:33.102)
Right.

Zeta (19:43.352)
Definitely agree.

Daniel (19:43.588)
I love that. think too often, as I've got God kids who are teenagers and they're looking at what they want to do. My own kid is a teenager. They're thinking about what they want to do. it wasn't until you brought up like the pandemic, it wasn't until the pandemic that I started to hear them say different things than

me and my friends 20, 30 years ago were saying. like, no advice should last 20 to 30 years. you know, at that point, like the things I have to say should be, we should have moved on. And I think it's only now that like we've come this far and that we're in a place where we can start looking at things. bring up video games, which I love just because I've up on the show before, but also when I teach instructional designers.

One of the very first things I do is like, Hey, we're going to talk about why the first level of Super Mario Brothers is one of the best pieces of instructional design material that exists. And here's how and here's why. And so like, love, I love that thinking of that angle. That's awesome.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (20:52.34)
Yeah, I mean, that's why I think my experience studying video games really informs what I'm doing now because a video game system has to be a good learning design system. If you think about it, like, there's no way you're going to invest all of the time it takes to go up a level and succeed, kill the big boss, do whatever the mission is in said video game.

unless it's designed well to keep you going. There's no teacher, there's no textbook. Like you don't read the manual. You might go on Twitch and watch like somebody play through it. You might look at all these other online resources and then figure out how to beat a particular level. You might collaborate with people in your headset, you know, like in a guild or whatever it is. But the game also has to give you what you need kind of just in time.

doesn't give you tools you don't know how to use or you don't have the power to use until you're ready. And if we think about those learning principles, those same things need to start applying into our education. And exactly, right? Like, where's the just-in-time learning for kids? Where, and I think technology and online courses and virtual programs can really help with that.

Daniel (21:59.11)
percent.

Scott (22:12.486)
Yeah, you bring up a really great point around around gaming design, which I think really kind of leans into this whole learning design. If I'm picking up on where you're laying down and that's just like you got to have clear objectives like what is it that the learner needs to learn? And I think sometimes in learning design, like I'm totally guilty of it. And I know a lot of peers of mine are completely guilty of it because you know what they'll do? I need to add a game into my learning because it's going to make it fun. OK, great. I'm going to go on and get a template.

And I'm going to get Wheel of Fortune. Yeah, we're to have Wheel of Fortune. It'll spell out something that they learned in the game. But what is the objective of Wheel of Fortune, honestly?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (22:54.146)
And here's where a learning design principle of like universal design for learning is helpful, right? That's all backwards design. What's the assessment? How are you measuring success for whatever the student is aiming to do? And then how do you backwards map that all the way to the initial objective? And so that every bit of the instruction is leading them to that assessment.

And if you're going to have a game, that game needs to be part of what gets them towards that assessment. And games just for game's sake, don't do it, right? Interactives, manipulatives, immersive experiences, things that have you reflecting thinking. So like what we know about metacognition also matters, like getting you thinking about your thinking that also helps propel you in the direction of achievement in the assessment.

Scott (23:55.898)
We talked a lot about technology and one of the things that you and I were talking a little bit about is that technology doesn't necessarily cure everything. What are some of the opportunities that are still systemic in education and in learning the design that we need to solve for outside of maybe a technological fix?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (24:15.22)
Yeah, I think that's an excellent question. We know that schools are grappling with chronic absenteeism. think here, if you read any of the education press, you see that it's no longer, I think here's a pandemic change as well. people need, the families, the students need to see the value of going to education. And sometimes people's lives are so complicated.

that actually getting to the school and to do their learning there is not the most important thing in their family's life and their kind of structure. So we need to open up ways to design schools and design learning communities that are more flexible in terms of timing. So there's conversations around start times, there's conversations around just

opening up different possibilities of a school day and a school year and what learning looks like. I kind of walked myself right into there's a technology solution for that, but it doesn't sound like it. Like just getting kids to school doesn't always seem like the problem. But I also think mental health is a big problem now and conversations around social emotional learning and making sure that

There are relationships built between educators and that the kids can build relationships. They feel connected and valued in their school. That their goals actually matter to the school and to the educators.

Daniel (25:56.144)
So I've got a, I was gonna say, I've got a question. We've got like, just if we think like, I guess eras, like we've got like 20 years since, or 20 years and some change since the internet sprung up really big. I think really in the last decade, we've really reached like a really, like that kind of plateau of like connectivity. We've known that there are these opportunities to enhance and make.

Zeta (25:56.626)
So.

Scott (25:56.722)
Yeah, no, totally agree.

Daniel (26:25.764)
better this educational space? Why do think there's so much fight and pushback against improving it?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (26:35.412)
Money and power. I honestly think it comes back to money and power, right? Like assessments, who's in charge, who controls. I think there are some policy efforts happening to try to change the way that assessments are thought of, competency-based education. There are different movements around the country in that respect, but.

Daniel (26:36.26)
Okay, yeah.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (27:05.918)
I don't know. Yeah, I think it's money and power.

Daniel (27:07.846)
You're preaching to the choir on that one. I was just curious. I think for too long we've focused too deeply on yes, no, and not enough on why. So no, 100%. Okay, I was just curious.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (27:10.357)
Yeah.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (27:20.116)
Yeah. And I'd love to see us aligning the values of our schools to the values of the communities, the values of the people more as opposed to the values of, you know, boards of education and policy wonks.

Daniel (27:38.948)
That would be cool.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (27:40.426)
That would be cool. It would be really cool. Yeah.

Zeta (27:42.104)
Definitely would. Definitely would.

Scott (27:46.59)
Okay, I'm gonna give you a magic wand, Jane. I'm gonna give you a magic wand. You can ahead and wave your magic wand, okay? And make some wholesale changes that would make things better. So given that, what could we imagine? Like if we were given the opportunity to do that, forget about money and power, we're just gonna have the magic wand do the work for us, right? What would that look like? In your head, what does that look like?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (27:48.406)
Mmm.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (28:12.022)
So I imagine a secondary education experience that leverages hybrid learning modalities, face-to-face, when appropriate, when valued, when needed, hybrid, online, immersive, virtual, flexible days and times. Not everybody has to be at the same pace at certain things. We know that the learners who might

you know, based on birth, be assigned to a particular grade, they're not all in the same place. So how could we use flexible groupings that kind of mix kids up that were not so siloed based on content areas and grade levels and things like that, where technology is brought in and

used as a means of giving people more access and freeing educators up to do the relationship building and the connection making and the mentoring and brokering that kids value where kids and their families get to have access to different learning experiences, pathways, content areas that maybe are beyond the norm and

You don't have to wait until there's another 20 kids who want to learn this language or more like for your school to have it or whatever the topic might be that you can explore different interests and those interests are encouraged and supported. If we think about what learning looks like once you're outside of formal education, I'd like to see learning inside formal education look more like that, where you kind of find communities

You find resources, you tap into information sources, and you do it because it's something you want to do.

Daniel (30:14.298)
Love that, love that.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (30:15.306)
I think good learning design helps with that.

Daniel (30:17.67)
It's a good wish.

Scott (30:18.935)
You couldn't be more right, especially in L and D. One of the things that I've been pushing in, it's pretty hot, is this idea of learning in the workflow. So if I hear you correctly, it really is learning in the education flow. I'm going to learn what I need to learn when I need to learn it, because that's how we operate. Like, hey, my garage door isn't working. What could be wrong with it? Well, I'm going to go to YouTube, and I'm going to find the shortest video I can, because that's how I roll.

and I'm going to figure out what's wrong with it and fix it and then I'll be happy. And you're suggesting perhaps the same thing so that the children or the people within the system can just, well, I need to learn this and I'm going to figure it out because I need to figure it out. I'm going to have a good time doing it. dare I say I have a good time doing it, that learning can be fun, right?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (31:04.32)
Right. And not only that, like, yeah, if we think about all the scripted curriculum and all of the ways that curriculum has been narrowed by the assessments and narrowed by this de-professionalization of teachers where, you know, we can't trust them, so we need to make sure that... It used to just make me cringe when I would hear curriculum be described as teacher-proof, that it didn't matter, right? Like the teacher who's using it? No.

Daniel (31:04.936)
Out there. Out there.

Daniel (31:29.574)
Ugh!

Dr. Jayne Lammers (31:33.854)
And instead, what we wanna do is we wanna empower the educators who have the training to incorporate the different best practices that connect a learner with the resources that they need to solve problems, to find out answers to questions, things like that, that set them up. Because if we stick with this scripted curriculum leads to an assessment, you didn't do good on the assessment, go back and try it again.

kind of model of education. We're not setting people up for good success once they get outside of that formal education space.

Daniel (32:11.78)
It's like the McDonald's mentality of like learning design, like one size fits all. no matter where you go, who you talk to, it has to be and taste the same. And that, that is just as appetizing as it sounds.

Zeta (32:21.891)
Yes, it's.

Zeta (32:25.519)
It's a formula of meh. It's not good, it's not bad, it's just somewhere in the middle and I think we can do better than that.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (32:28.053)
Yes.

Scott (32:32.574)
Okay, begs the question though, so I'm gonna ask the question. What does success look like? And how do we measure against that, right? So if you're gonna tell me that, and I agree with you, like you've preached to the choir, like an assessment is just a measurement of retention at any given time. It doesn't lead to competency at all, right? It just is a measurement. What does success look like or what could it look like? And then again, how do we measure against that?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (33:02.932)
I think success could look like, you know, how do you apply what you learned? How do you put it together with other subject areas and propose real world solutions to actual problems? I think, you know, it could look like, how do you have the skills and the understanding and the experiences needed to go do the job you want to do after?

you finish a formal education context. How do you get to...

to make a difference in your community in a way that matters to you. How do you connect with other people in a way that matters to you? that could happen in a lot of different ways. Like how do you get a message out? maybe assessments, for example, I was an English teacher by trade. So assessments could look like a performance. It could look like a podcast. It could look like...

delivering a message at a school board meeting to try to make sure that you have better lunch in the cafeteria, whatever it may be. It doesn't have to be, can you fill in the right bubbles and answer, create a formulaic essay at the end of the year in order to pass an assessment.

Scott (34:32.634)
Awesome. Good, bad, or indifferent, we're kind of getting at that point in time where we're going to need to start wrapping things up. So I want to give you an opportunity to kind of, maybe there's something you really wanted to talk about today and you didn't get to it, or maybe there's an opportunity to kind of wrap up some of those key thoughts for our audience. If you could do that for us, that'd be great.

Dr. Jayne Lammers (34:52.778)
Well, I will say at Edmentum, we've been thinking a lot about reimagining this secondary education space, specifically designing new CTE courses and putting things together that kind of wrap around CTE, providing system-wide interventions that help schools try to solve these problems with their educators and the technology that we know is well-designed because we used the science behind it.

We've got efficacy reports that show that what we put out in front of kids when implemented according to the implementation guides that they work. And we've just recently released our latest impact report. So that's available on the Edmentum website. Yeah, I think we're trying to do something that actually empowers educators and helps learners succeed.

wherever it is that they're learning in the US or abroad.

Scott (35:57.372)
Dr. Lambers, you so much. Great stuff, great discussion. I'm super glad that we could share this time with you. Could you do me a favor? Could you let our audience know how they could connect with you?

Dr. Jayne Lammers (36:07.818)
Best way to connect with me is on LinkedIn. You'll find me, Jane C. Lammers there on LinkedIn. And if you're interested in the impact report or any of our foundational research or efficacy research and hearing more about our products, that's edmentum.com.

Scott (36:23.998)
Thank you so much. Really appreciate your time. Big broad strokes of thinking and I hope we inspired some people. think it's great.