The Fabulous Learning Nerds

Scott Schuette (00:07.456)
All right, get started. Three, two. Hey, everybody, we're back, back again. The nerds are back. Tell your friends. It's time for another fabulous episode of your Fabulous Learning Nerds. I'm your host, Scott Schuette, and with me as always, he's also back. You love him. Dan Coonrod, everybody.

Scott Schuette (00:30.31)
And this is where the drop would come in.

Daniel (00:33.072)
Seems like good place for a drop.

Scott Schuette (00:35.33)
my God, that's funny. All right, let's do that again. Cause I had a good thing and then I F'd it up. We're going to do it again. All right. Three, two, one. Hey, we're back. Back again. The nerds are back. Tell your friends it's time for another amazing episode of your fabulous learning nerds. I'm your host Scott Schuette and with me, my cohost with most Dan Coonrod everyone.

Sam (00:41.013)
Ha ha ha.

Scott Schuette (01:02.292)
Dan!

Daniel (01:04.048)
Scott! What's up, man?

Scott Schuette (01:06.216)
Okay, what's up with you, sir?

Daniel (01:09.424)
man, it's the busy summer season.

Scott Schuette (01:14.504)
It is a busy summer season, but are you doing okay?

Daniel (01:17.902)
Yo, yeah, yeah, I'm fair to Midland.

Daniel (01:24.506)
thought you'd like that. I thought you'd like that.

Scott Schuette (01:26.048)
Yeah, I think so for sure. Absolutely. Like you and I were talking, a couple of days ago, cause we've been talking and we're all just kind of sipping from the fire hose for sure, man. I'm just total. Everybody wants something yesterday. I don't have enough people to get everything done. Thank God for technology. Thank God. We're going to talk about technology today because man, man. And I want you to talk about it too, cause you have a similar story. Like I'd be completely screwed.

Daniel (01:38.33)
Dude.

Scott Schuette (01:55.156)
without technology.

Scott Schuette (01:59.188)
That's right. Straight from the, straight from the horse's mouth. God rest, Hulk Hogan, everybody. speaking of greatness, he's here once again, peeking out from behind the curtain. Sam's in the house.

Daniel (01:59.92)
true.

Daniel (02:03.815)
Heh heh.

Scott Schuette (02:24.66)
Sam.

Sam (02:26.357)
What's up nerds?

Scott Schuette (02:28.532)
What's up, nerds? Are you also sipping from the veritable firehose, sir?

Sam (02:37.727)
I mean, it is the weekday, so all the time.

Scott Schuette (02:42.14)
All the time, all the time, sipping from the fire hose all the time. Like what are you working on that's been keeping you up at night?

Sam (02:52.717)
work related. Every day is a learning process when it comes to Articulate and what it can do and what it can't do and what it refuses to do. But personally, what I'm sipping from the fire hose right now is that I am in the home buying process.

Scott Schuette (03:19.306)
So you're about to be broke, is what you're telling me.

Sam (03:21.617)
Yes, yes. I feel like when you're paying a mortgage, it's like another level of adulthood. You reached, I think, level four or level five adult when you're paying a mortgage.

Daniel (03:21.648)
hahahaha

Scott Schuette (03:30.793)
It is.

Scott Schuette (03:37.684)
I've had one for a while now and I have to agree with you. It's one of those things that you just pay. If you got a mortgage, you just pay, right? And everything else kind of falls around it. That's just my thing. Well, that's cool. Is this your first mortgage I'm thinking?

Sam (03:54.143)
Yeah, this is first, I'm a first time home buyer. Me and the Mrs. We got a VA loan.

Scott Schuette (04:01.5)
nice!

So you're get the nice lake house with the sauna and all that other groovy stuff?

Sam (04:08.725)
Yep, only only lake houses, at least eight bathrooms, normal first time homebuyer stuff.

Scott Schuette (04:14.92)
I gotcha, I gotcha. I feel like that's what happened with us this year, because I did a lot of home upgrades this year, and I'm gonna tell you, like, one home upgrade a year is good. Five or six at the same effin' time is not a good thing. It's like it's not a good thing at all, but yeah, I wouldn't recommend that.

Sam (04:24.905)
Yeah!

Daniel (04:32.547)
Ho!

Sam (04:39.273)
Honestly, that's my plan as a homeowner is one solid home upgrade a year just to help build value.

Scott Schuette (04:47.304)
I gotcha. That's kind of what normal people do. don't know, Dan, is that your experience with homeownership?

Daniel (04:54.37)
Man. I mean, yeah, you did. You did. You did. I have I have complicated feelings.

Scott Schuette (04:57.992)
Opened up a can of worms, everybody, I'm sorry.

Sam (04:59.839)
Hahaha!

Daniel (05:06.32)
I think just as I was hitting, maybe I should buy a home. 2008 rolled up and that was an exciting time for those of us who remember. So that feeling of dread and terror around home ownership has never really left. I'm sure I should talk to a licensed professional about it, but man man.

Scott Schuette (05:19.742)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Schuette (05:30.41)
Did you buy a home right before 2008?

Daniel (05:33.78)
that's for another show. That's for another show. That's for another show.

Scott Schuette (05:35.39)
I'm just curious. Okay. Now I bought mine right after that. So I feel good about it. I know, right? Right after is when I bought mine. I won the lottery that year, yeah. That's right. Hey everybody. Zeta is not here, which is very, very sad. But we're gonna talk a little bit about some things that we're working on and things that we've learned so that we can.

Daniel (05:40.9)
That's great. That's right after is great.

Scott Schuette (06:05.086)
help everybody improve. with that, we're going to go ahead and transfer over to our topic of the week.

Scott Schuette (06:18.08)
So we're doing it live. That's right. We're doing it live to make sure we bring some value to you. We're gonna keep things clean. It's heck of a lot of fun. I wanna start off with why Ms. Zeta is not here and the groovy stuff that she's doing to create stuff. So she's creating right now, which is really kind of groovy. So.

Daniel (06:20.558)
Ha ha ha ha ha

Daniel (06:36.964)
Yeah, yeah, we can touch on it. We should definitely like have her on the walk through the full process, but like, being busy, Zayden and I are both busy and right now she's working on getting some animations done. And she's, she's come up with a really interesting workflow that like for, depending upon what access you have, tools you have, experience you have, you know, there's all kinds of tools out there to help people with, to do animation and

Scott Schuette (06:43.701)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (07:04.132)
having used like After Effects and Premiere Pro for years. Like you can get some amazing things out of them. But sometimes you need something that's just like, I'm just gonna say a little bit easier to use, a little bit more friendly. And just on accident, Zeta ended up with a mix of Photoshop, assets and PowerPoint, just to help like control like when animations happen, what scene they're in.

Editing it is really, really easy instead of playing like, I have to add like 30 seconds here and now I have to go back and go through the whole animation. Like, Nope. It's just one little scene. It's super easy to drop in, get everything set and squared. It's for simple stuff. It's amazing. Super easy. Zeta can definitely talk about it more in depth, but it's awesome.

Scott Schuette (07:41.674)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Schuette (08:02.442)
So I gotta say, like, PowerPoint doesn't get as much love as it should get, right? So you're doing basic animation in PowerPoint. You're exporting it to MP4, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, holy smokes, like, you know, a lot of the people that were on my old team, you know, graphic designers, Illustrator, right? We're gonna be using Adobe Illustrator. And I'm nothing against Adobe Illustrator. I'm just not.

Daniel (08:13.606)
yeah, yeah, when we're done, yeah.

Scott Schuette (08:31.518)
I-I-I... I can fake my way through... Huh?

Daniel (08:33.392)
You learned to use Photoshop first, didn't you? You learned to use Photoshop first, didn't you?

Scott Schuette (08:38.408)
I did. Absolutely learned to use Photoshop first.

Daniel (08:40.784)
I said this is just an observation, but I found like I learned to use Photoshop first as well. And so when it came time to learn Illustrator, it was like, was like, I don't understand this. Everything is wrong. Everything's in the wrong place. And so like, you know, like just a nerdy moment to like talk about like learning and like knowledge transfer and things like that. Adobe makes Photoshop, Adobe makes Illustrator, Adobe makes all these programs and

I think the UI language is similar, but it always feels like it's just not the same. It's just not lining up. I think Illustrator and Photoshop is a prime example. They do so many adjacent and similar things, but I find myself just baffled in the layout for Illustrator because I'm so used to Photoshop. So I'm like, going hit Photoshop. I'll do this, da da da da da, run this, run that, do this, da da da da.

All right, cool. I need to go over into Illustrator and I need to make this shape real quick because it's just, can't get anything good that I like in Photoshop and I don't know what to do because the layout's different. It's, the things are still there. Yeah.

Scott Schuette (09:44.372)
You know, the same, yeah. You could say the same thing about After Effects and Premiere Pro. Like I get Premiere Pro in my sleep, and you put me into After Effects, I'm like, bleh. I know it's awesome, it could do great things, amazing things that I don't know how to do. really?

Daniel (09:50.233)
Yes!

Daniel (09:55.404)
And see, I learned After Effects first. I learned After Effects first. Yeah. And so like when I sit down in After Effects, I'm like, all right, cool. I have to go over to Premiere Pro now and export something. Click, click.

Scott Schuette (10:08.0)
Well, just call me up. I'll happy to do it. I could do that in my sleep. I could totally do it in my sleep. That's the thing. Find people who do things just like with tech. But back to PowerPoint. PowerPoint's just like poor, poor persons. It's a poor person's everything, right? So if I'm, again, we're going back to the whole Adobe Illustrator thing. had to, somebody gave me this like really technical dark document and said, could you make a one-pager out of it? Like, yeah, sure. I can do that.

And yeah, we need it in like a day. I'm like, man, okay, sure. So what is, where do you start? Where did I start? Canva, so I went to Canva for sure, 1000%. If you're not on Canva, what are you doing? Okay, maybe you're on Visme. Visme's okay, I prefer Canva, because that's where I started, that's what I use, right? And I just, ooh, I like this layout, download it as a PowerPoint.

Daniel (10:46.88)
yeah, where I start Canva.

Sam (11:00.254)
I do enjoy some Canva.

Scott Schuette (11:05.898)
drop my stuff in there, everyone's like, wow, you're amazing. No, just resourceful. And I taught myself PowerPoint in the 90s. I've been doing PowerPoint for decades, right? And you could do so many great things with PowerPoint and just a matter of repetition and using it, it's really, really great. So folks, you don't need Illustrator or Premiere Pro to do groovy stuff. So I really liked that idea. Go ahead, Dan.

Daniel (11:15.952)
Toon.

Daniel (11:29.328)
you

No, was about to say, like, dude, PowerPoint, man, I can't believe I want to say this. This is the nerdiest thing we've ever talked about. PowerPoint's awesome.

Scott Schuette (11:38.176)
Just say it. Just say it.

Daniel (11:45.442)
It is PowerPoint is like, remember, I remember new into this profession and somebody's like, you're going to be making a lot of PowerPoints. And I was like, I was like, no, I've made a wrong choice. Like, I can't imagine like what special hell it is to just be making PowerPoints all day. And you know, listen, even like when I was interviewing people and finding people and like, and, and one of my questions was always like, you know, like, Hey, you know,

Scott Schuette (11:46.592)
That's right.

Daniel (12:14.81)
what do you want to do? And if anybody was just like, I really like PowerPoint. I would always call them out on it. I'd be like, really? Who really likes PowerPoint? Like, and they'd be like, well, I mean, you know, I'm like, you like PowerPoint that much? Like run me through how much you like PowerPoint. And now I feel bad. Anybody who interviewed me during that phase, I'm so sorry, are interviewed with me. And, it's because like, man, PowerPoint is like my go-to place. Like, man, I got to build something like,

Scott Schuette (12:42.976)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (12:43.406)
I might end up in something else, but I'm going to start in PowerPoint. Cause I'm going like, move this here, move that here. Do this, do this, do this, lay this out. I've done book layouts in PowerPoint instead of using InDesign. I man like so much stuff, so much stuff.

Scott Schuette (12:52.16)
Mm-hmm.

Scott Schuette (12:56.608)
Sam, are you a PowerPoint person?

Sam (13:01.141)
PowerPoint's okay.

Daniel (13:03.598)
Hahaha!

Scott Schuette (13:03.732)
Just okay. It's just okay.

Sam (13:04.609)
I use PowerPoint for a lot of basic stuff. Like if I'm building like a layout and I want something more lightweight before I move it over to Articulate or if I need just a proof of concept real quick, I'll use either Slides or PowerPoint. And I find the shareability with that particularly good.

Scott Schuette (13:31.328)
Right.

Sam (13:32.061)
I feel like what's been built into PowerPoint is a lot of the ability to be collaborative.

Scott Schuette (13:41.128)
yeah, yeah, for sure. And especially if you're on a SharePoint and you're editing at the same time, which I totally think is awesome. I love that. I love that. think it's great. but just to pro tip for anybody listening, like I would, I'm going to recommend, like, if you want to, you want to have a secret sauce, there's nothing better than PowerPoint because raise your hand. How many people know people that really stink at PowerPoint and how many bad PowerPoints have we seen?

Sam (13:47.425)
That's exactly it.

Scott Schuette (14:09.714)
in our corporate lives or in our personal lives. Just bad PowerPoint, bad PowerPoint, right? Word walls, just keeping everything in a, my gosh, a standard layout or just cramming as much stuff as you can on a slide without understanding the nuances of telling a story. Cause it is a really great storytelling device. And once you figure that out, once you figure that out and can really navigate and move and PowerPoint and make

quick edits things and make them look great. Again, Canva helps too, hint, hint. People will love you with a capital L. That's just my experience from a PowerPoint perspective. Because it really is, everybody uses it, but not everybody's really good at it. That's my humble opinion. But I'm glad that Zeta's good at it.

Daniel (14:51.6)
He

Sam (15:02.911)
When it comes to being good at things like PowerPoint and Articulate, one thing I always do to try to like wow people with that is to get to the point where even if someone knows the program like PowerPoint, it still makes them stop and think to themselves, how did you do this? How was this accomplished? And I feel like that's very much a point of pride. It's like building up a wonder with a simple tool.

Daniel (15:03.229)
yeah. yeah.

Scott Schuette (15:21.589)
Hmm.

Scott Schuette (15:31.712)
Speaking of PowerPoint, I have either reused gamma AI.

Daniel (15:38.138)
That's if we talked about this. No, I have not. I haven't used it yet.

Sam (15:38.281)
I have not.

Scott Schuette (15:42.012)
Okay, have you used Chat2TP to build PowerPoints?

Daniel (15:48.048)
Yeah, to help like do layouts and stuff like that. Yeah, like at least like tell like, you know

Scott Schuette (15:50.9)
Yeah. And what's your experience with ChatGTP and putting together PowerPoints?

Daniel (16:01.818)
do it a lot.

Scott Schuette (16:07.648)
That's right. It's not very good. Gamma AI is actually pretty good at developing AI, mean, developing PowerPoints from just say a prompt or you got an outline that you put together in Word and you drop it into Gamma AI, right? So, oh, by the way, just make sure the content is not anything that anybody wants to get a hold of. But at any rate, that being said, it actually puts together a pretty decent PowerPoint, like better than average PowerPoint.

Daniel (16:08.601)
my God.

Scott Schuette (16:36.028)
I still find that need to tweak a lot of it, but if I didn't tweak any of it, you'd be like, wow, that looks really good. How long did that take you? A minute. took me a minute to make it actually generates AI images too. So let's say your topics about ice cream or whatever, it'll generate images that go along with whatever the content is. Cause it's got an AI image creator in there as well.

Daniel (17:03.78)
That's pretty cool. Have you used Beautiful.ai?

Scott Schuette (17:07.238)
I have heard of it, have not used it yet. I need to start playing with that.

Daniel (17:10.275)
Yeah. It's all right. It's all right. Like I've used it a couple of times. Like if I'm like, man, like I just don't know, like I don't know how to like lay this slide out or I don't know how to make this look like I'll hit that and be like, okay. Okay. I see how that could look. I'll sometimes I'll use like mid journey if I'm trying to get like a template started as long as we're talking about like weird stuff to do with, you know, AI and photos and PowerPoint. But like, I haven't found, excuse me. I haven't found,

Scott Schuette (17:31.914)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Daniel (17:38.948)
like a one stop shop fix yet. I guess that's a semi good thing, but you know.

Scott Schuette (17:47.562)
Help me understand a one stop shop fix. Like all in one, this is gonna take care of all my problems. Well, we had Steve talk about that, yeah.

Daniel (17:51.348)
yeah!

Yeah, Yes, yeah. think, mean, like AI is heading that way, you know, being able to like do everything. But I think it still struggles to pull together like a cohesive, complete presentation.

Scott Schuette (18:15.838)
no, I agree. I totally agree. And I also don't think that there's any one-stop shop solution. I think that if you're going to be good at what you're doing from a design perspective, you're going to need multiple tools to do that. A lot of the AI content generators that are part of other solutions. if I'm using a platform and its solution is X, nowadays it's got AI content creation.

Daniel (18:28.76)
Yes.

Scott Schuette (18:45.64)
All of them do. Like even the portal that I'm using in my job, it's got AI content creation. And a lot of the AI content creation tools on platforms whose value proposition wasn't AI content creation to begin with, then usually they're partnering with somebody else and they're getting a half-baked solution. And I got to tell you, it's not very great. And I find...

I need to go outside of that to get what I need. A really good example, like if you want to generate quiz questions, and it used to be that that was an art, and it still is, I still think that good quiz questions is an art because there's so many nuances to it, right? That, you know, I don't want to have the all the above gimme answers. I don't want to have the B and C are correct, but D and A are not answer because it's too damn confusing and you've just.

Daniel (19:23.993)
It is.

Scott Schuette (19:41.892)
usurp the audience. I love to choose all that apply, even if all of them apply, because it's a real nice check for me. But I found that a lot of AI quiz generation tools, whoo, bottom of the barrel quiz, Not really great at that balance between what I'm trying to accomplish from a behavior change and also what am I really trying to track from retention change. It's just

Daniel (20:02.574)
Yeah.

Scott Schuette (20:11.072)
here's a quiz, which defeats the purpose, in my humble opinion. I just don't want to have a quiz to have a quiz. I want to have a quiz for reasons. So at any rate, if I'm using a platform and I need to make a quiz, I'm probably not going to use that platform's quiz generation tool because it's probably not ready for prime time yet.

Daniel (20:33.68)
Yeah, mean like, dude, 100%, you said it already, like writing a quiz is like its own art. Writing good questions is so tough and you just don't want to like check a box. And I agree, like sometimes like, sometimes everybody's like, it's a rush and I'll be like, oh, maybe I'll just get AI to write this question and I'll do that and be like, yep, yep, I regret that 10 minutes. I regret that time, that time is lost.

Scott Schuette (21:00.296)
mine's more like 30, because I'll be like, that was really bad. it again. And it'll, it'll give me the same, but different, right? So it's basically the same low quality quizzes, but different, right? And I'm like, I know you can do this. Come on, come on little robot. You can do this, right? Come on, let's do this. Let's make something good. I know you can do it, right? I don't know. Sam, are you writing quizzes?

Sam (21:29.193)
Me? I do a little bit of I suddenly can't speak. I do a little bit of quiz writing. I honestly, with quiz writing, I find it to be one of the more difficult sections. And that's mainly because it- the filter of getting everything to a concise point and then asking that question in a quiz?

Scott Schuette (21:44.746)
Mm-hmm.

Sam (21:56.435)
I always find a more difficult process to write a little bit about something that covers everything than to write a lot of it as something that cover that is an in-depth study of a few subjects. I always feel like I'm leaving out information when I do something shorter like that.

Scott Schuette (22:16.81)
That is interesting. I know you're new to this. That's very, very interesting. Dan, did you ever feel that way?

Daniel (22:24.752)
I yeah, pretty close. I think I'd say like pretty close. I...

And like for me, like writing quiz questions was always tough. It still is still as tough. I remember like when I first started, I fell into a trap of trying to be clever and make questions, you know, to really test people, really test their knowledge. And so I ended up just being a jerk. And so I'd make questions that like the only purpose was to

to test, but a good question should teach as much as it tests. And I think that gets forgotten and missed a lot of times when we talk about how to make questions.

Scott Schuette (23:16.008)
Yeah. No, I fell in that trap too. Right. So it's like, look at all these really great quiz questions. My boss is like, where's the information for those questions? yeah. So you got to make sure you're not trying to fool your audience, but yeah, no, I get that. Like I always fall back on what, what's the objective of the quiz question? what are we trying to change? What kind of behavior we're trying to change?

Although recently I found myself updating or putting things together really quick with content that had no retention. So whomever created the content before basically just here's your content. And that's it. And I'm like, I am not okay with that.

I mean, maybe I should be okay with that, but I'm not. I just, want that experience to be more than just I watched a three minute video and now I'm done. Like there, there has to be something. And from an engagement perspective is a level as well. if I'm going to track things, I kind of want to, mean, I don't even care what your score is, but I kind of want to see that you went through the motions other than just hit play and walked away. Right. So.

Daniel (24:34.362)
Yeah.

Scott Schuette (24:36.0)
Yeah. So I found myself just kind of, well, let me write some quiz questions and throw them in here just so that we've got some kind of interactivity or whatnot at the end. And then we'll work on redoing this later. I don't know if that makes any sense or

Daniel (24:53.56)
No, no, I get that.

So we started off, you started off and you asked us what we were working on. Yes, Samuel, he's working on, I wanna circle back around, Scott. What are you working on?

Scott Schuette (25:00.062)
Yes, for sure.

Scott Schuette (25:07.228)
Everything. I feel like Tim Allen in Home Improvement. you know, do I have that? I do. Yeah. I feel like him. Yeah. Yeah. There's just a, you know, a lot going on. When you're in an organization and you're in charge of learning and development and you discover that really good people

Daniel (25:08.664)
Hahaha!

Scott Schuette (25:35.028)
worked really hard to put some things together, but it wasn't a competency of theirs. And there's a lot of cleanup work, a lot of redesign work, which is really kind of cool, but it's still a lot of work. I will say this though. So I'm building, you know, building a whole new learning platform or redesigning, my gosh, hundreds, and I mean, hundreds of learnings, right? the, know, that that's a really cool thing for us to look at and.

Everybody's been super cool. But I got to tell you, like, one of the things that I think is really cool is this idea of simulation in learning. We don't do enough of it. And one of the reasons that we don't do enough of it is because it takes time, right? So one of the great ways of learning is to learn by doing, right? So if I'm to go ahead and create, like, say, a choose your own adventure, which I think is a really great short form of simulation,

Right. get to pick stuff and then depending upon what I pick, then I get answers and things like that. That's really cool. but again, it's all about time because it takes time to do that. But the payoff is really great from ROI perspective. I had a demo and if we can get this company on, I will because they crack the nut when it comes to simulation training. And let me give you the example that they gave me. So we're looking at

the training that I was taking with this company as a example, because we need to, I'm also helping to train a brand new sales force, like a brand new people that no idea of how to sell what they're selling, because it's all brand new. So we got some people really good at sales, but here they're selling this product, they don't understand the product. So how do we get them to understand the product? Well, okay, maybe simulation. So I'm doing a simulation, they...

And I go, they don't have one specific enough for us, but they could build it, which is great. So here, we're going to give you a demo. And it was all on emotional intelligence. I'm like, oh, OK, I could do that. Totally cool. All right, great. Cool. So I'm sitting down. And you're sitting down at what looks like a computer terminal. So your computer terminal looks like a computer terminal. It's got little apps on the bottom. And there's a timer at the top.

Scott Schuette (27:53.76)
Right. So they said everything needs to be timed because life is timed, whether we want to admit it or not. Right. So life is a timed thing. Like, okay, cool. And it was 45 minutes. I'm like, okay, cool. Whatever. So it's again, all in emotional intelligence, right. And they gave a little objectives at the front and they had an AI woman talking, which is kind of the thing today. They get, know, here are your objectives and here's what's going on. And you're a new director and you're the head of some team, yada, yada, yada. Right. Go.

So I'm sitting there, okay, cool. And all of a sudden, boop, little email notification pops up, right? I'm like, okay. So I click on my email thing, right? And so there's this email and I had to read the email and it was from my VP. And it said, I'm really disappointed in you, which is not an email that you want to get from your VP, just a little pro tip for everybody. I would hope that we'd be farther along because Joe and Bob are fighting blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And I'm like, my gosh.

Daniel (28:43.567)
Yeah, yeah.

Scott Schuette (28:52.478)
and I had to pick a response. I remember distinctly that the first response is, well, I'm doing the best I can. And I'm like, I know that that's not the right response. Because C-suite people don't like that. So as I'm trying to pick the response, all of a sudden, what is supposed to be my Teams app, but they didn't call it a Teams app, pops up. Booba dooba dooba doop. And it's just ringing while I'm trying to type out this email and show some leadership to the VP.

Daniel (29:02.736)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Scott Schuette (29:21.888)
It was Joe and Bob. They emailed, they team bombed me, right? And I'm like, well, that never happens, right? Well, it happens every ding dang day, right? It just happens. so I'm like, anyway, this went on for about 10 minutes, but I was like blown away because when it comes to simulation, and here's my point. So it's got to be relevant and it's got to be real.

And it's got to help us change behaviors. by the way, when you're done, there was like a report card on how well I did and the choices I made and what I can learn from all that kind of stuff. But I just blown, I immediately called my sales development director and I said, dude, you got to check these guys out. They are your solution. How much are they? I don't know whatever they cost, but you're wanting to spend the money, right? Because it's just really, really cool. Yeah. It was super awesome. Like anytime that you could, we could do it. Most sense got a...

Daniel (30:06.916)
Yeah, that sounds awesome.

Scott Schuette (30:15.538)
a really nice simulation training, it's not, it's really cool because it teaches you some things and it's in a game format. And I love it. I love it. I love it. I think it's great, but this was more real to what I do every day. And from a leadership perspective, this is what I do every day. So if you're thinking about, Hey, listen, you know what, when, we have learning and you want to create a simulation and you, and you've sold that into people that this is a great way of doing it. Like relevancy is super key.

And hopefully I inspired some people with that story. it, you know, on a baseline level, whether you want to hire this organization to do it and it'll look really slick and it'd be really cool. And if you need a solution tomorrow, like that's cool. Buy something off the shelf. That's great. But you could do that yourself. We could totally do ourselves and get similar kind of responses, similar kind of feedback.

Daniel (31:06.266)
Dude.

Yeah, dude, I listen, I.

Just again, nerd out for a minute. feel like simulations fall into that, when we think about the three ways that we measure learning. For Bloom's taxonomy, we have effective and we have our cognitive and then we have our psychometer or psychometer. I feel like simulations are that, are that psychometer.

Scott Schuette (31:16.671)
Nerd.

Scott Schuette (31:26.858)
Mm.

Daniel (31:43.38)
Method of learning that like gets ignored all the time like you're actually doing something like you're clicking on stuff You're moving things you're making things happen and we're measuring the effect of this like that's that's cognitive is You know what you need to know You know effective is How it makes you feel how you need to feel about it, but psychometers is doing it

Scott Schuette (32:07.989)
Right.

Daniel (32:11.01)
And that one gets ignored so often. dude, a good simulation checks that box. Yep, cool. You know how to do it. You feel confident with it. And now you actually did it.

Scott Schuette (32:24.318)
Right, and then the one piece I think that I didn't get to, but I think is super important and you don't need a simulation to do that. It's the reflection part of it. What did you learn? Hey, what did you learn today? How are you gonna use this on the job? I had a really big opportunity the other day putting together a power hour for this big team, like 70, 80 people on this call, right? So the very high visibility things and at the end,

We did a survey, and this was not something that these people are used to doing, just not what they're used to doing at all. And so I'm like, hey, we're gonna set on a survey. I want your feedback, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And one of the feedback questions was like, what are you gonna do differently with what you learned? my God, we got some great, great, great testimonials from that, great feedback from that. And when I brought it,

to my leadership and just said, hey, here's the feedback we got, right? So I mean, the five-star rating is one thing, and of course, everybody's gonna love it because, and so it got like a 4.9, which is awesome. And there are some things that we learned too, from just kind of polling our audience. Like this is what, we were like, this is what's gonna be really important. It wasn't the last thing. That was the last thing that they got from a relevancy perspective, but it was those nuggets of, here's how I'm gonna apply what I learned. I'm like, this is gold.

I was so happy. Everyone was super, super happy. And if you're not doing feedback after your learning sessions, I think you're really missing out from a continuous learning perspective. And the data too, the data you can show a C-suite person, it's just got to have, like it's a must have now.

Daniel (34:01.782)
100%.

Daniel (34:12.41)
Dude, it's so easy. mean, we've talked about before fire and forget training, just like, I made something and here we go and send it off and it's done. All right, cool. On with my day. And somebody goes, okay, cool. I to this training. I click a couple of boxes. I click, click, click, click, click. Okay, cool. It's done. move on. And if everybody is just like, that's just what, how you're thinking about it. Like, why do the training like what?

Like you're just checking boxes. Nobody's holding on to anything. You're not moving anything, but tell it like feedback, not just feedback, but then like acting on that feedback. think, I think people are so hesitant and reticent. There's my fancy word for the day to give impactful feedback because they either fear that it will hurt somebody like, Oh, if I tell them this, like they'll get in trouble or it will impact them.

Scott Schuette (34:40.631)
yeah.

Daniel (35:07.576)
And to be fair, right now we're in a place where it's like, if you don't have five stars, you know, I'm not going to pick you for my Uber driver. I'm not going to pick you for like my Instacart delivery person. like this idea of leaving honest feedback gets thrown away so you can leave like five stars and you know, in business world, like five stars is it like, hey, how come it's not perfect? How come we don't have five stars on this? Well, because, know.

It's not for everybody. Maybe somebody missed a point. Maybe somebody was upset. Maybe somebody had a bad day. Maybe there's something we missed and this feedback could help us on. But everybody gets so caught up in it. don't know. Feedback is so important. Acting on feedback is so important. But I worry that we get further and further from a place where people feel safe to leave and receive feedback all the time.

Scott Schuette (36:01.364)
Hmm. So what can you fix that?

Daniel (36:05.904)
I think telling people in a survey, I think one, when you first launch something and you're looking for feedback, telling people, we're hungry for your feedback. Feedback is a gift. We want this. Just so you know, the feedback that you leave today will be used to update and make changes to this course. So your feedback will have impact. More importantly, the feedback you leave today

will be used to help our developers, our instructional designers, developers, whatever, grow and develop and isn't used to measure or impact them and their job performance. Just like, at least for the first, mean, obviously we want feedback and we do want a metric to track that. But when you're launching new things, like tell people, hey, your feedback is going to make positive changes and you're not going to like ruin somebody's Friday.

Scott Schuette (37:08.116)
Yeah, I think that's right on the money. Go ahead, Sam. I was gonna say something.

Sam (37:09.749)
How do you, how do you feel like feedback bias affects this? Because a big thing with asking for feedback is that the only thing you get when people give feedback is usually the very best or the very worst is what you get with feedback. And honestly, as someone who loves feedback and have always loved going through the feedback on

Daniel (37:29.966)
Yes. Yeah.

Sam (37:39.389)
any topic. It's the ones that are kind of in the middle of the road that tend to be the most useful, the most grounded in what could actually be going right or what could actually be going wrong.

Daniel (37:54.256)
I think the perspective you've got there, like, hey, I'm only getting the worst or I'm only getting the best has some merit. But I also think that there's maybe a skew there going on with intended audience and the amount of feedback you're receiving. so because people don't want to leave feedback because they're...

worried like, oh, it isn't impactful or it doesn't matter or, if I leave feedback, like somebody is going to get in trouble. So they don't. And so all you're left with are the people who are like, this is so egregious, I have to say something or this is so great. I had a great experience. I need to say something. But I think if you, if you put those safety nets in, I think if you say, hey, tell, the learner upfront, your feedback is valuable and we're going to use it to make positive changes to this course to.

The feedback you leave isn't going to be used as a performance indicator for somebody's performance on this course. You leave room for people to say, I liked it. It was good. Which seems on the surface like very just blah, blah, say. And I think as creators, we hate it was fine because we want impactful feedback ourselves. But if you have a large enough audience, if a large enough audience is like, yeah, it's good.

Like obviously we want more. We want, it was bad, it was good, it was great. But a large enough audience saying, it's good is positive feedback enough to tell you, hey, this is good. I can move forward. Whereas if you only have like one or two people saying, yeah, this is good. You as a developer can have a lot of fear and doubt. Like, is it good? Like there's only a couple of people. I sent this course out to like 30 people and.

only two or three people have responded to the feedback request. Like, oh no. You know, when you start getting to like, hey, I this course out to like 10,000, 15,000, know, 50,000 people. And if you're still only getting like 1 % feedback, it still is like, it still is good. It still is a place where you can be like, hey, you know, I've got, you know, 500 or excuse me, 50, 60 people leaving feedback. You obviously want more, but at that point you have at least more to like,

Daniel (40:14.576)
draw from more people's input. And I think there's less worry and doubt about, it good? Is it, is it?

Scott Schuette (40:25.568)
Well, I could tell you that Gallup throws away the two threes and fours. They throw them out. It's not an indicator of any kind of engagement. you know what I'm saying? Cause so many that's a check the box answer, which I think is fine. Right. But we're really looking for those ones and fives ones and fives really kind of gauge where people are at from an emotional level when it comes to the things that we're trying to test against. Right. which is hard to do. Like, I don't know. have, for me, I've never done it. I just know that Gallup does it.

Daniel (40:47.649)
Yeah.

Scott Schuette (40:53.78)
The other thing that I would say from a bias perspective, what's helping, what I'm finding, share out what you find. Hey, we did a survey. Now how many surveys you take anywhere and you never really find out, what happened with that survey? Because I answered and I put some stuff in there, what's going to be different, right? So I know that I shared out that information. Hey, this is where we're at. This is what we got, right? And we're going to...

because of what you told us is what we're gonna do next. That makes me wanna fill out a survey the next time I do it because, you actually listen to me? Well, then that's awesome. Like show your audience that you're listening and actually doing the things that they're asking for or explaining why we can't do that, but we heard you in some way, shape or

Sam (41:43.573)
Maybe we could do surveys on survey questions.

Daniel (41:44.474)
Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. What if each, so let's say we do a Likert scale, we do one through five. What if you gave a call to action for each score somebody could give? So what if you're like, hey, please rate our course on a one through five with a one being awful and a five being amazing. We ask that if you rate this course a one after submitting

Scott Schuette (41:46.996)
We could.

Daniel (42:13.84)
you reach out to your manager or somebody else and let them know, hey, I gave this course a one and this is bad. If you rate this a two, we ask that you reach out to the developer directly and say, hey, I had a really bad time. I had a real negative experience with this course. It wasn't good. If you rate this a three, we ask that you email some of your coworkers and tell them about the course.

you know, maybe a five, maybe a five, no, is that maybe four is like, Hey, email some coworkers and say, had a really great time with this course. So you email your manager and a five being like, Hey, you you let, your, let your director know, or let somebody in your chain. Now, like, Hey, I took this course and it was a fantastic experience. I think, I think you said it where people tend to go like two, three, four, because it's like, like, yeah, it was all right. Which, know, could be a problem with the course, but also.

You know, there's no skin. There's no, there's no ass. There's no direct consequence. So what if, as you're building, you say, Hey, if you're going to rate this, we're going to ask you to do some follow-up. We're going to ask you to do something.

Sam (43:25.373)
I like that as part of like, it's like it's measuring the emotional connection of how much are you likely to take an extra step. And I feel like it could also work in both directions. Like you could have a positive five, which is you're willing to go to the director and say how awesome this training was, or you could have a negative five, which means you're going to go to the director and say how terrible the training was.

Daniel (43:54.608)
I think too often, and just as in general, we have become, it's easy to just click a button, leave a score and go. mean, and listen, some of that's on purpose. There's so many, so many ways to word your feedback, to elicit and push responses to trend in a direction. It's so easy, I say easy, but it's easy to write your feedback questions.

push your averages up. Like, hey, I'm gonna word this in such a way as you're enticed to leave a five, which, know, or you're enticed to leave a three or a four. can't imagine anybody wanting to entice people to leave average, but you can write questions to do so. But if you ask somebody to do an action afterward, that helps remove some of that, that like push. Like, hey, I want you to do something.

And is everybody gonna do that? No. But enough people will that I think you'll skew a more accurate result. And a result that also puts, again, some onus on the feedback giver. Like, hey, thank you for your time. Time is precious. Feedback, all feedback is a gift.

You're gonna click a button, you're gonna maybe leave some words. We ask that you just do one more thing. You engage externally from this moment with someone else.

I mean, people are going to do it anyway. They're going to go to their friends. They're going to say, yeah, I this course. It sucked. yeah, I this course. It was great. We just want them to do it a little bit more mindfully, a little bit more purposefully.

Scott Schuette (45:41.149)
That's awesome.

Scott Schuette (45:45.492)
Hey folks, it's that time. We're gonna have to wrap things up. Great discussion. Love how everything kinda ebbed and flowed. That's really, really awesome. Dan, could you do me a favor? Could you let everybody know how they can get in touch with us?

Daniel (45:58.676)
Absolutely. Alright party people, you guys know the drill. Email us at nerds at thelearningnerds.com. This week we want to know what are you up to? What you doing? How are you? That'd be great. If you're on Facebook, you can find us at Learning Nerds, Instagram peeps at fablearningnerds. And lastly, for more information about us, what we do and updates, www.thelearningnerds.com. Scott, back at you.

Scott Schuette (46:26.016)
Thanks, Dan. Hey, everybody, do me a favor. Go ahead and hit that like button, hit that subscribe button, share, I mean, capital S-H-A-R-E, this episode with your friends. And then also do us another favor. Could you please, please, please, pretty please with a cherry on top, just leave us a review? I don't care where. It could be iTunes, could be Spotify, whatever. It does two things. Hey, we're gonna go ahead and read those reviews and we're gonna go ahead and make adjustments based on what they are.

But also, you know what's this little things called the algorithm, right? And what it does is it just kind of opens it up so that more people can find the goodness that Sam, Dan, and maybe a little bit of myself and Zeta2 have to share with all of you. And with that, I'm Scott.

Daniel (47:11.568)
I'm Dan.

Sam (47:14.305)
I'm Sam.

Scott Schuette (47:16.188)
and we're your fabulous learning herds and we are out.